Monday, October 20, 2008

"Tolerant" opponents show true colors

Thousands of traditional marriage supporters have been victimized by the so-called "tolerant" opponents.

Reports are pouring in from across the state of voters' Yes on Proposition 8 signs being vandalized or stolen. Yes on Proposition 8 staff members' homes have also been targeted for vandalism and theft. There have also been reports of volunteers having been physically attacked.

"Destroying and stealing personal property-this is tolerance?" questioned Karen England, with Yes on Proposition 8. "What are opponents so scared of that they are attempting to intimidate and silence us?

"Opponents of Proposition 8 claim that we have nothing to fear about government-mandated same-sex marriage; it won't impact our freedom of speech or religion. How can we believe them when they're stealing our freedom of speech from our own front lawns?

"This is the type of intimidation and true intolerance we can expect without Proposition 8. This should be a wake-up call for every voter concerned about our precious First Amendment freedoms. That's what Yes on Proposition 8 is all about-saving our freedoms."


Mike said...

AMEN! I also have had a Yes on 8 sign vandalized and then removed from my front lawn. One of my coworkers noticed a series of Yes on 8 signs removed from front yards along her commute to work. My Mother-in-law noticed one taken down from a multi-sign location in her hometown.

The Anti-8 folks are REALLY out to silence us. And they tell us that are liberties are NOT at stake? The same people who are vandalizing and stealing our Prop 8 signs also vote. What will they be voting for in the future? Declaring Christianity unconstitutional? Some may laugh now, but someone recently had the gall to SUE THE BIBLE!

Our society is out of control, and we must be Salt & Light in a dead and dying world.

Thanks for posting. Feel free to catch my blog... Prop 8 posts are getting a few comments. ;)

A CROW'S VIEW said...

Yes, Evan has made a valid point. But I also think its just as wrong to label people who believe that homosexuality is a sin as closed minded bigots just because they come to that conclusion as a result of their sincere religious beliefs.

And lets be honest here. If these same acts were perpetrated by someone on the Yes side, we all know that the same people who are going on about how we shouldn't judge a whole group by the acts of a few, would be screaming "See I told you so, HATE CRIMES!!!"

How many of the pro-gay marrige side are quick to throw terms out like homophobia, bigots, closed minded and ignorant as an attempt to make those who disagree with them not only look hateful but stupid?

Tolerance isn't tolerance unless it does work both ways. I've never said that I was tolerant of sin. I will openly say that yes I do fear homosexuality because it is a sin that if acted on will remove the spirit and separate the sinner from God. That is something to fear. Now yes I don't think we should shun the person and they have their agency to choose, but that doesn't mean I have to pretend that its okay in the name of friendship.

As for the statement about "fair and true statements."again, this translates into, "statements that I agree with because the only statements that can be true are the ones that I accept and agree with." So again, this is all relative.

The fact of the matter is simple. If Prop 8 doesn't pass then laws will be enacted that will do exactly what the so called scare tactics say. That is the really the scariest and most deceitful scare tactic out there. Don't worry, it won't be as bad as you think. Well California, look at Mass.

It's already happened.

emily said...

yes on prop 8!

Scott said...

If these same acts were perpetrated by someone on the Yes side, we all know that the same people who are going on about how we shouldn't judge a whole group by the acts of a few, would be screaming "See I told you so, HATE CRIMES!!!"

Both sides are having signs stolen, overall in fairly equal numbers (proportions vary widely depending on location, obviously).

Of course, it's in the best interest of the "yes" side to only report the theft of the "yes" signs so that they can claim that their "so-called 'tolerant' opponents" are the real intolerant ones.

Another example of withholding half the facts to mislead and invoke fear and mistrust.

For the record, I think that the vandalism and theft on both sides is deplorable. I also acknowledge that there has been dishonesty from the "no" camp as well.

But there has been far more deception and deceit from the "yes" campaign, and if Prop 8 passes it will be an ill-gotten victory, dishonorably won. (The fact that the "yes" campaign has to resort to fear-mongering and misrepresentation and the fact that despite such tactics "yes" has no clear lead in the polls both indicate that in an honest campaign the Proposition would have had no chance of passing).

Anonymous said...

I am sorry you have lost friends over this issue. I don't think we should lose friends over any political issue. We should be able to agree to disagree.

I'm afraid though that many people who support Prop 8 don't realize what effect this measure and all its actions has on us.

Vandalizing and angry words and loss of friends are not to be excused. It's not what fellow human beings should do to each other regardless of the reason.

You may not mean it this way, but when most gay men and women read comments like:
"The Anti-8 folks are REALLY out to silence us."
"Declaring Christianity unconstitutional?"
"yes I do fear homosexuality"
"then laws will be enacted that will do exactly what the so called scare tactics say"
"we are considered the enemy"

...we feel marginalized, hated, dehumanized, and treated like we aren't citizens of this country. And the comments on this blog are *mild* compared to others.

We're two sides of the same coin. You feel like your religious rights are going to be taken away if Prop 8 fails. We feel like our human rights will be taken away if it passes. I don't think either side can convince the other that it is wrong.

I am gay. That will not change. I am LDS. That will not change. The Gospel teaches us that we should strive for the bonds of marriage. And just like the rest of LDS doctrine and culture, those desires do not end easily in any member.

I cannot be married in the temple, nor do I ask to be. I do ask that I be allowed the desire of my heart to marry the man I love. A life of celibacy and loneliness is not a life of love. I will not live it. By banning same-sex marriage you legalize pre-martial sex as the *only* kind I am allowed. It seems immoral to me.

Remember that as you latch on to the extremists of any group (those who steal Prop 8 signs, fight against religion, or otherwise offend) you are trampling on the rights of normal people like me who want to live a normal life. You fear those people but you mistakenly add me and others like me into that group.

It would be as equally erroneous for me to lump you in with Islamic Jihadists just because you're both religious. All gays are not the same.


A CROW'S VIEW said...

I want to address Scott's comments because while I will give him the right to his opinion, I will also say that he is dead wrong. Yes we all have rights to one, but just because you have it, doesn't make it right.

I wonder again what he means by "if Prop 8 passes it will be an ill-gotten victory, dishonorably won."

Secondly he states: "The fact that the "yes" campaign has to resort to fear-mongering and misrepresentation."

The first statement sounds more like preemptive sour grapes. The second sounds like "the only facts that I will accept are the ones that I agree with everything else is false."

What has been misrepresented? The fact of the matter is if gay marriage is allowed to stay in CA laws will be enacted that will make it protected and normalized. Teachers will have to teach that it is "just the same" as traditional marriage. And yes churches can be sued for discrimination through freedom of association laws. They did it to Boy Scouts in CA earlier.

What the Anti-8 people aren't telling you is that they know all this stuff is down the pike. There are lots of examples in Mass. Their greatest form of misrepresentation is that they are trying to play it that that those who are fighting for Prop 8 are saying that Prop 8 will prevent these things. Okay admittedly Prop 8 itself won't prevent these things, but if Prop 8 isn't passed these things will occur as a result of the courts overturning Prop 22 and allowing for same gender marriage. If same gender marriage is allowed to continue then YES these things will happen. They are already happening.

These people have been very effective in turning a sin into a civil right. They are good at using scriptures that they twist to fight their cause. Those who claim an LDS background forget that when the Prophet talks and acts as the Prophet it is the same as scripture.

Please remember, that those who would council you to do otherwise, to not follow the Lords council given through His Prophet, to act against his gospel and church are leading people into dangerous water. Remember in the Kingdom of God there is no such thing as loyal opposition. There are only two sides to be on. You have to make that choice on your own.

A. The Prophet has issued a call to action. B. We have our agency. C. Our testimony in the gospel and in the Prophet should dictate how we act.

It's that clear cut.

Scott said...

Here are some misrepresentations:

CA Education code requires that schools teach respect for "marriages and other committed relationships". Even if Prop 8 passes, kids will be taught to respect gay civil unions/domestic partnerships ("just the same" as they respect marriage)

It's going to happen either way. The "yes" crowd implies that passing Prop 8 will keep it from happening. That's a misrepresentation.

Catholic Charities in Boston voluntarily chose to discontinue their adoption placement services out of concern that anti-discrimination legislation (not legalized same-sex marriage) might result in a future lawsuit if they refused to place children in same-sex headed households.

The pro-8 crowd states that they were forced to close after refusing to place children in same-sex homes. That's a misrepresentation.

The Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association in New Jersey chose to disallow a gay commitment ceremony (there is no same-sex marriage in New Jersey) in a pavilion that they owned which had been opened for public use. The state revoked a property tax exemption on that single piece of property because the exemption was granted contingent on the property being open to the public. By dictating its use the OGCMA had demonstrated that the pavilion was not open to the public, so they lost the exemption.

Pro-8 says that if 8 fails to pass churches will lose their tax exempt status if they refuse to allow their facilities to be used for gay weddings, claiming that it has already happened to a church in New Jersey. They neglect to mention that (1) OGCMA lost a property tax exemption on a single facility for (2) refusing to allow a commitment ceremony (commitment ceremonies will continue to take place whether or not Prop 8 passes) and that (3) the exemption in question was based on the ability of the public to freely use the facility in question.

That's misrepresentation.

I could go on, but I've already quoted all of this and more in other comments on this blog and it's gotten to the point where I feel like I'm talking to a kid who has stuck his fingers in his ears and started going "LA LA LA".

None of the perceived threats to religious freedom or the education of our children will be ameliorated by the passage of Proposition 8. If they are going to happen, they'll happen. Claiming that Proposition 8 will prevent that is a misrepresentation.

I am only leading people not to follow the Lord's counsel if the Lord has actually counseled us to support Proposition 8. I don't believe that He has. I do my best to live close to the Spirit and to do God's will, and I try to seek His guidance in all things. I have felt Him touch my life. I know the Spirit's voice.

No matter how many hours I spend on my knees pleading and praying for guidance and confirmation on this issue, the answer is the same. When I think about Prop 8 passing I feel darkness and despair. When I think about it being defeated I feel joyful and jubilant.

If I am being led astray I have no hope for my eternal future, because if I have mistaken my feelings on this then Satan has become so proficient at mimicking the Spirit that I have no hope of ever again discerning right from wrong.

I do not believe I am being led astray. I believe my cause is just. I hope that I can state my point of view clearly and without animosity to those who feel differently. I try very hard to avoid personal attacks and retribution, even when I feel personally attacked myself.

I believe that members of the Church can disagree on this issue without being disagreeable. I think that Satan is rejoicing at the corrosive contention that abounds among the Saints, and it makes me sad.

I do appreciate your willingness to post my views, even though they differ from yours. I don't believe the issue is quite as clear cut as you believe it to be.

A CROW'S VIEW said...

Bottom line: The Prophet has issued a call to action. The Prophet is Thomas S. Monson.

Bottom line: In the Proclamation to the World: The Family (notice this is to THE WORLD, not the church) the prophets warn us of what will happen, they don't use scare tactics or misrepresentations. They speak as prophets and say outright that God will not stand for this.

Bottom line: Okay so you spend hours on your knees praying about this. The Lord has already spoken. Are you asking for counter revelation? Even if you did receive it, you don't have the keys to receive revaluation for the whole church or the world. That is solely the calling of the prophet.

Bottom line: Anyone who would council someone to not follow the Prophet when he has spoken the will of the Lord is on shaky ground. And if it leads to their turning their backs on the council of the Prophet then their apostasy is on your head.

I read your evidence of misrepresentation, I think you provided enough evidence to prove my point. Your right, it's already happening. So why help Satan in his cause in promoting his goals any further.

The Lord has spoken through his Prophet about what he expects his children to do.

On a personal note. Scott, I post your stuff because I feel you are sincire. I do honestly belive you honestly belive the stuff you are posting to a point. Part of me also thinks that you doubt what you are saying or you woudn't be so adiment in proving it to me, a complete stranger. I hold no malice to you. And I think that we could be friends.

But the final bottom line here is this. I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I sustain the Prophet. When the Prophet speaks as the Prophet then I know that following him is what the Lord wants me to do. I need to put aside my own doubts and fears and have faith in him who God speaks through. Even if you toss out all the other reasons to support Prop 8. That is the single, most important reason. Because the Lord has asked me to. That's as clear a request as I can give.

We can't let our own feelings and emotions, wants and desires cloud what is clearly stated by the Lords Prophet. I don't call that blind faith, I call that faith.

Superstar said...

Just a little word substitution to show you how religious belief can get in the way of rights of the people:

"I sustain [Allah]. When [Allah] speaks as [Allah] then I know that following him is what [Allah] wants me to do. I need to put aside my own doubts and fears and have faith in him whom [Allah] speaks through. Even if you toss out all the other reasons to support [death to all Americans]. That is the single, most important reason. Because [Allah] has asked me to. That's as clear a request as I can give.

We can't let our own feelings and emotions, wants and desires cloud what is clearly stated by [Allah]. I don't call that blind faith, I call that faith."

Al Qaeda represents a global organization that perceives Western culture, Christianity, and the beliefs of others as a direct threat to their beliefs. They want to limit the rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all Americans because America represents an affront to their God and religion, and someday their children might perceive American values as being OK.

How is this any different from Proposition 8 and your fervent beliefs? I'll take my answer off the air if necessary.