Thursday, October 23, 2008

This is how low it gets - Superstars comments

After weeks of online debate over Prop 8, and both sides having their reason for why or why not the other side is using scare tactics, lies, and misrepresentations to further their cause. I posted the following which for me is the main reason. Of course I was instantly attacked by people who accused me of not praying for a spiritual confirmation. Which for the record I have and received. I was attacked for being a closed minded sheep. Well okay, then I will say in my defense that I know who my shepherd is and I will gladly follow him. Here is what I wrote.

But the final bottom line here is this. I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I sustain the Prophet. When the Prophet speaks as the Prophet then I know that following him is what the Lord wants me to do. I need to put aside my own doubts and fears and have faith in him who God speaks through. Even if you toss out all the other reasons to support Prop 8. That is the single, most important reason. Because the Lord has asked me to. That's as clear a request as I can give.

We can't let our own feelings and emotions, wants and desires cloud what is clearly stated by the Lords Prophet. I don't call that blind faith, I call that faith.

Today this in response "Superstar" whomever he or she is sent me the following.

Just a little word substitution to show you how religious belief can get in the way of rights of the people:

"I sustain [Allah]. When [Allah] speaks as [Allah] then I know that following him is what [Allah] wants me to do. I need to put aside my own doubts and fears and have faith in him whom [Allah] speaks through. Even if you toss out all the other reasons to support [death to all Americans]. That is the single, most important reason. Because [Allah] has asked me to. That's as clear a request as I can give.

We can't let our own feelings and emotions, wants and desires cloud what is clearly stated by [Allah]. I don't call that blind faith, I call that faith."

He or she then added:

How is this any different from Proposition 8 and your fervent beliefs?

Okay first I've been very liberal about posting comments to my blogs, even if they disagree with my opinions, but I think this one is a little over the top.

First of all you are making an assumption that I am blindly following the Prophet. Secondly you are comparing all Latter-day Saints who do show their faithfulness to those who would resort to acts of violence to further their cause. Finally you are also now lumping all followers of Allah into one group of radical extremist that do this sort of thing. In all of the above your statements are as closed minded and bigoted as anything you've accuse me of being.

If you are a faithful member of the LDS Church part of that is sustaining the Prophet as Prophet, Seer and Revalator. When the Prophet issues a call to action, acting in his sacred calling as a the prophet, it is doing so under the direction of the Lord. Yes we should pray about it, but we also need to realize that having our own opinions about something doesn't count as spiritual confirmation that the Prophet is wrong. Sometimes we can be overwhelmed with our own emotions and not see the whole eternal picture. Sometimes Satan will use our emotions and desire to be right to cloud our spiritual receptions.

Now to answer your questions. Those who are choosing to use their agency to follow the Prophet and support Prop 8 are nothing like those few Muslim extremist that make up only a small portion of those that follow the Prophet Mahamad. For one thing we have a LIVING prophet. Secondly nowhere in the Koran does it state that they are to kill infindals being American and no one is advocating killing gay people. These are the misguided teachings that the extremists are holding to. Those who vote yes are exercising their democratic freedom to vote on an issue. You have the same right. No one is forcing it on people. If you don't like it or disagree with it vote no on it. Apparently you don't believe this because 8 years ago when the state did vote yes on Prop 22, four judges overturned the peoples vote so now we are voting again on it.

Superstar, I don't know who you are. You don't have a blog, you don't have an identity. You are anonymous. Yet you spout your opinions using the safety of other people blogs carefully hidden. I posted your comment and wrote this blog to show just how low some of those who oppose this will go with the name callings and accusations. This is insulting. Comparing those who are faithful members of the church to those who kill people to follow their beliefs goes beyond the bounds of good taste and into the absurd, irrational and insulting.

In closing it really makes me think twice of anything else you may have to say knowing that you will sink to that level.


Superstar said...

First of all you are making an assumption that I am blindly following the Prophet.

No. I'm merely saying you're following your prophet. Just like Muslims do. I do not see the words "blindly" in my comments, and I respect your beliefs and ideals and defend your ability to do so.

I'm asking you to take up the challenge of Atticus Finch in To Kill a Mockingbird and imagine yourselves in the shoes of another.

In this case, the shoes of a Muslim terrorist, whose prophet has issued an edict of destruction to foreigners. To be a believer in good standing, you must do this. Otherwise, you fail to follow your prophet faithfully and protect your religious beliefs from imminent destruction.

Then, I ask you to step one level farther out to see all of the religious groups out there, all of the nonreligious groups out there, and everyone living in society together. Each believes his prophet or self has the true link to God, truth, ethics, or higher authority.

Why should one of those groups be allowed to choose details of how another of those groups lives as both individuals and as members of a society? Why should they decide if someone else lives or dies, as in the case of a terrorist, simply because of a perceived danger in alternate beliefs?

The president of BYU-Idaho says, "[Homosexuals] cloak their arguments in other terms ... (such as) civil rights ... but their fundamental purpose is to destroy religion in our society."

That's a pretty awful and broad assumption to make, and I know many gay people whose beliefs it does not reflect. I know many who would seek to uplift the role of religious belief in both their society and families.

If asking you to step back and attempt to look at situations through the eyes of others is "how low it gets," then attempting to engage you in thoughtful discussion is fruitless.

Please feel free to dramatize and misrepresent this comment as well.

A CROW'S VIEW said...

Again, what's the point of having a living prophet if we don't follow him?

Again please tell me when and where did the Prophet Mohamad issue such a command? I've read the Koran and I've never seen any part of it in which such a command was issued. Please don't pain all Muslims with the same brush.

That's like calling members of the FLDS church Mormons and then saying all Mormons are believe and live the way they do.

No one is choosing rather someone will live or die here.

What we are doing is voting and expressing an opinion on what we think about how someone should vote. Most people do base their voting on their beliefs. Please note, I said Voting. Not enforcing or forcing.

I don't have to dramatize and misrepresent anything, your comparison does that for me.

emily said...

crow's view:

thanks for publishing "superstar."

these tactics need to addressed openly.

you do a good job. no reasonable person is convinced or persuaded by this anonymous person.

we are all allowed to express our opinions through voting. a leader of a church saying: people, let me point out to you an important issue over here that needs your attention, we can't see the effects of this decision, we must think about this issue and do all we can to support the traditional definition of marriage, this doesn't sound dangerous. This sounds like a religious leader giving its members a heads up.

I for one appreciated it. I didn't even know what was going on back in June. Now I do. Now I'm participating. Again, after thinking about the issue and considering why it might be important to the prophet (and to God).

As one person, I am influencing public policy. There is nothing like this comparable to being a terrorist.

Superstar's comparison is transparent and embarrassing.

Also, we all are led by some kind of religion. Whether it is God, or Hollywood, or work, or money, or existentialism. We are all following some kind of morality even if it is amorality.

This is why we vote, to find out what the shared beliefs of the state are. And no this has nothing to do with the civil rights movement.

okay sorry for being so long. i'm going to bed.

emily said...

p.s. i think i've said this before.

but i support tradition marriage because it is our society's ultimate expression of equality. one man and one woman.

any other relationship would expose a marginalization. A lesbian marriage marginalizes men, a gay marriage marginalizes women.

i think our society should promote a definition which is expresses gender equality: one man and one woman.

it's kind of amazing actually. i think it should have a separate name and be encouraged by the state.

rock on crow. i kind of adore you.

Superstar said...

True, you won't find anything in the Quran regarding any of what I said, mostly because it's a satire aimed at pointing out how belief systems construct a person's entire being. Yours, Emily's, mine, everyone's.

As for "tactics," I take neither side, Miss Emily, except for the side of the United States of America and its republic form of government. (Please, if you ever get a free moment, google the words "democracy versus republic" and study some of the better references. Hint: The United States is a republic.)

I couldn't care less about homos getting married, or Mormons fighting them. What I do care about is the erosion of the principles our nation is founded upon, and how the LDS Church has done an about-face on their usual reverence for our system of government.

True, it's part of the system for residents of a state to vote on changes to a state constitution. But you'll find many opponents within the LDS Church who despise the "referendum" method of policy making. That is where my argument lies. Not with any one belief. Not yours, not theirs.

You two have taken this as a personal attack and a "tactic," but it's merely a statement about why our founding fathers chose not to have American governed by public referendum or pure democracy. It's the same reason you have BYU law professors and LDS legal minds speaking out about the issue.

If you truly think it's just "fags versus families," then we have nothing to discuss. Go knocking doors instead.

A CROW'S VIEW said...

Superstar thank you for finally admitting that you are being satirical. I really didn't think it was possible for someone to be that ignorant and closed minded, especially when those are the weapons you've been fighting me and those who stand with the Prophet.

You also pointed out something that is also true when you wrote about how "(a) belief systems construct a person's entire being."

I think you are right. I do think this is the case also for those who are fighting against Prop. 8. Thank you for you insight.